Parenting advice needed

March 19, 2009 – 2:06 pm

One of my friends is a father of two children.  They are of middle-school age and a year apart.

Both bright and capable, but there has been a shift in their attitudes, and work ethic of late.  My friend is desperate to find a solution….thus, he turned to me and the amazing reach of this weblog.

Here is the situation:

Jason is in 8th grade.  For most of his life, he studied hard, paid attention in class, and got mostly A’s and B’s.  An excellent student by most standards.

Jessica is in 7th grade.  She too is very smart and capable…but tends to spend more time socializing with friends than listening to the teacher.

Of course, my friend felt that both of them could do better, if only they fully applied themselves.  So he and his wife devised a plan whereby the children would be paid based on their grades on the report card.  $50 for every A, $20 for every B, and nothing for C’s.

The results were fantastic.  Jason was motivated already by his desire for a nice car on his 16th birthday, and saw this as a boon to his personal fortune.  The very first quarter, he turned in 7 A’s and a B…..quite a score.  Jessica too improved, although she maintained an active social life.  Suddenly where C’s once resided, B’s were flowing in and even an occasional A.  Mom and Dad were pleased.

Unfortunately, the honeymoon did not last long.  Within a few report cards, there was unrest in the family home.

Jessica was bringing in $100 per report card, but was miffed each time she saw Dad hand Jason 3 crisp $100 bills and a few 20’s.  One time he actually got $400.

Naturally, Jessica felt shorted.  “Why should he get so much more than me just because he’s a nerd and was born smarter at stupid math?”  And of course, her most convincing argument was that Jason didn’t deserve $400/report card….”no one at school needs that much money!”

The situation was intolerable at home, and Mom and Dad decided that the gap was unfair.  After all, both children were loved equally.

So a new rule was adopted.  Anytime one of them made more than $200 more than the other on a report card, they had to share half of the difference with the other….in order to be fair.  The vote was 3:1.

Recently, however….unexpectedly….grades have fallen back off.  Jessica is back to her old ways of mostly B’s and C’s….and Jason has taken up activities far less productive than studying. In fact, on his last report card, Jason only managed one A and barely took in $210…a mere $100 more than Jessica.

Things are more equal than ever, but no one seems happy.  My friends are lost, unsure of what to do next.

Any thoughts?

  • JC
    LOL!!! Real-world Socialism in action! Just what you would expect: the have-not (Jessica) lobbies for 'equality'. When she gets it (by playing on the emotions of the rest of the 'voters'), the high-output section of the economy (Jason) optimizes his efforts to get the maximum payout/input ratio (he shoots to make $200), and puts the rest of his effort into non-producing activities.

    Obama's group should look at this (matter of fact, both Dems and Repubs should look at this).
  • 1. Five Love Languages for Kids (it's a book, here's the idea. Not all kids are motivated by money (gifts). Some by words of affection, some by quality time, some by touch (hugs), some by gifts, and... you'll have to get the book. The kids are not the same, but will definately feel lesser if they don't get paid the same... that's only 1 of 5 ways to motitivate, and there are other books on topics like this, as well as parenting classes. Better to find out now, so they don't go looking for love in all the wrong places & ways...
    1.5. One book, 1001 ways to motivate your employees, etc. rewards that are not money based. Parents who are simply an ATM don't have a real relationship. Tell them why they are studying -- to save money in college... via getting a scholarship, finishing school sooner, having more time to enjoy doing X in your life. Hard to explain, but what's 2 years of college worth these days?
    2. Focus on the Family, also has some cd-book guidelines.
    3. Internships, etc. Sports, etc. might also be good, sounds like parents are focusing on grades to exclusion of all else ?

    However, practically, we have kids who've been given so much, that the idea of working for things they want are foriegn.

    At one point, they'd have had more work, and could have started a job at 14 -- no longer.

    Imagine the wealth we have to have the struggle of paying our kids to do something they should want to do...

    Try verbal praise.

    I give my adopted son as much work as I can, so he can learn to earn his money.

    Preparation for life.

    Getting good grades in school is easy -- but what other activities can one do?

    Finding things that motivate all of us to work hard is both easy and hard, but you can easily imagine as an adult that the most happy people in this world are NOT motivated by the money from their job, but from the value they provide to others, in my own case by serving and helping others.

    My parents modeled this in their lives.

    Are the parents giving them those other things besides be good in school? Do we ever as parents give our kids enough time?
  • Alex
    Personally, this sounds like a short-sighted system. Money is a nice perk but I seriously doubt that it's a significant motivating factor. For the son that has already found reasons to work hard this gives some good money, for the daughter who either doesn't see the value in school or isn't fitting in it is yet another snub. Very little upside, big downside.

    Far better to drop the financial incentives and try to instil a genuine appreciation for school. Without a strong internal motivation, any work is bound to suffer. Plus, poor schools quickly teach students that school is about jumping through hoops, regurgitating answers and performing route tasks rather than teaching them any genuine appreciation for the subjects or the process of learning. Tying grades to money just emphasises this disconnect. Why do good in school? For some short-term monetary gains or for the pleasure of learning about the world and growing as a person - you can bet the former will produce the most apathetic students, no matter what the reward.


    As one lesson I learned growing up and I see now with a new generation, paying kids for chores or tasks you expect to be done doesn't teach them values, it teaches them that you perform in order to get paid. Once they get a job or realize they don't need the money their compliance falls dramatically. There were several famous psychology studies which showed that people enjoyed performing dull tasks more when they were given meagre rewards (a small cookie or a couple quarters) rather than when they were given a big reward (tens of dollars). Why? When the reward was small, they found satisfaction in the task itself; when the reward was larger, they felt dissatisfied because the money wasn't more and that it didn't justify the work they had to do.

    I've no experience trying to undo a program like this, but I think the best long-term course is to stop paying your children for good behaviour but rather to teach them why behaviour is good in and of itself. They sound old enough to understand, give it a try.
  • The parents need a course in intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation.

    They mastered extrinsic, but the intrinsic motivation is the area they need to work on. Then, pass what they learn onto the kids. Teach them what options a good education and hard work will get them in the future. Teach them a sense of pride. Tell them they are "really proud of them for working so hard", or "really proud for improving their grades", and when adults come over, make sure the kids are within earshot, but not in the room, and in the "adult conversation" go overboard and brag to the other adult about how great it is that the kids are working hard at school, and improving their grades.

    What I'm about to say, is a little "after school special"-ish, but tailor it appropriately.

    Tell the kids, they are going to throw a party for them at the end of the year, with all their favorite foods, invite all their friends, relatives or whatever the kids like. But make sure, some smart adults are there. Tell them, at the party, they are going announce the "best student of the year award". The best student will win something valuable - but do not disclose the prize. Tell the kids, its on the order of $1000 in cash value - right up front, but do not go into any details and do NOT give any clues. Drop subtle hints, that the impressing the adults that are coming to this party, could have other benefits. Make up stuff that would be important to the kids.

    ...basically, give them a reason, to want to win this award of "best student", so that they want to learn on their own, as well as win the prize. Make them think, the party is a big deal, and that the award would be something to be really proud of. Make a countdown, or something....build suspense.

    Then, give them a prize...and make the prize a little lame, but still "good". When the kid looks a little bummed, explain how valuable the education they got was, and that the prize is really nothing in comparison.

    http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/academics/center/te...

    Goodluck,
    Jeff
  • Besten
    The solution is that the kids should not go school, drop out, and live off their parents until their money runs out. Once that takes place just move in with he neighbors.
  • Andy, it is a sure sign of a perfect article when my wife reads your blog before I do. To top it off, the comments had us both rotfl.

    My take: The parents failed, so for the sake of the children, Uncle Hitler should move in, strip the parents of their rights, force his adoption through the courts and raise the kiddies in a proper program named The Hitler Youth.
  • Jeff Kelly
    Try being their PARENTS, not friends. Lay down the law. Start taking away computer, cell phone etc. It won't be fun. Kids will be unhappy for awhile. It's now or never. If the kids find they can control the situation now, upper school will be a nightmare. Hard but if done now, things will get better. I don't say this lightly. It's really hard on the whole family. paying for what the kids should be doing is not the answer.
  • frank
    this is eggggxxactly what is happening in this country...redistribution...taking from the ones that are making shit happen and giving it to the one's that are not
  • :)
  • did I just give parenting advice to AndySwan's metaphoric political post? I was going to go into a rant about that, and this is part of what's wrong with America...but blah...hahha.
  • ROFL!

    True story -- we really do use this system at home, and not just for blog allegories. I have four kids, and they are a lot younger, so I don't pay THAT much for A's... but my bills have been high at the end of the trimester.
  • bankdraft/Leigh Scott
    After serious overnight reflection I feel that my initial advice to your friends was a little harsh. They should not put the children up for adoption. They have too much invested already. Their initial strategy is solid just needs to be tweaked.... They should hastily arrange secret parent/teacher conferences to be held at the nearby Wal-Mart snack bar and make the same offer to the teachers for under the table cash compensation for improved grades (A's and B's only....NO C's) and a complimentary SNUGGIE. The teachers will agree because THEY really need the money...to live. They agree to donate back 10% for the end of the year teacher "Woo Hoo" party, which the parents agree to organize and subsidize. It will be held on the last day of school at the local Mexican restaurant that offers 2 fer 1 margeritas (all teachers love them). As a result the children are thrilled with their newly improved grades which required zero effort. They are rewarded with verbal praise from their parents as well as extended curfew hours on friday/saturday nights and new Blackberrys.... (Jessica is especially happy) Everyone is smiling.This is simply Parenting 101...Rule #53 "Always keep 'em guessing" and Rule #196 "I am not adverse to bribery" under the chapter titled "Just How Did That Happen?" Tell your friends Good Luck! I can be reached for a personal consultation if need be.....
  • Hired
  • Bill
    Their social lives are just starting to blossom (jr high), they are searching for their identities, getting their first taste of independence, learning how to deal with the opposite sex, and learning to cope with all the new issues being thrown at them. And life comes at them so much quicker now (facebook, myspace, text messaging, etc...).

    Save the money, let them be themselves, encourage them, give them your time, support, and most of all love. But keep the boundaries - they need a nudge in a certain direction every so often, and a few rules and painful lessons along the way never hurt. That's how they'll pick up on important things, like being respectful and honest, choosing to avoid drugs, choosing the right friends, and protecting each other.

    So they may or may not be rocket scientists or doctors one day. BUT it doesn't matter, as long as they are happy, and passionate about their choices down the road. I went through the exact predicament, and could not be more proud of my two girls. And I am SO glad that stage has passed!
  • starsuponthars
    Your friend has entered into the world of classic behavioral conditioning. The problem is, he will only be able to modify their behavior. If he really wants to go down this road then he need to move to variable interval reinforcement (randomly give out 1k every so often). He will not be able to change their hearts or better said win their hearts this way. Somehow he it needs to be an expectation that his children "apply themselves" The heart issue behind "their lack of applying themselves" needs to be identified and dealt with. Do they have no understanding of cause and effect? Are they lazy? Selfish? Think only about themselves? Greedy? Apathetic? Typical teenagers? Help them see the consequences to whatever the heart issue is.

    Now that all that mumbo jumbo has been said. Take control. Provide a real eduction. Let the school be the school, but your friend needs to engage in their lives and teach them what they need to know.
  • Malcolm Lloyd
    I see where you're going with this...

    :-)
  • Parents should explain Jessica that rules are the same for everyone and that reward depends on results, not ability. In addition to the rewards for As and Bs, I would add a fee for Cs and Ds. In such an occasion, Jessica will have to concentrate on her own performance in order to minimize her losses and maximize her profits. Ones she knows the new rules, she'll be motivated to find a way to boost her grades, to focus on her own results. If she's not able to figure out something on her own, then the parent could offer her a free advice. For example: manage your time wisely; use your current proceeds to hire a tutor that will boost your grades; invest in her brother as she hires tutor for him for % of the brother's new income. With one sentence: give Jessica incentives to become more creative.

    There will be a time when Jason reaches his full potential and starts to brings only As. He'll still have the incentives to keep his high performance, because he knows that he'll be reprimanded for lower grades (C or D). At this point he'll have to figure out other ways how to increase even more his income (therefore wealth). He might start tutoring his sister for money now or % of the increase in her future income - a mutually beneficial situation. When Jessica achieves all As, then she and her brother will start looking for other opportunities to boost their income. They may notice that the neighbor's kids are rewarded/reprimanded under the same circumstances. (their parents heard about the great results of Jason and Jessica and adopted similar procedures). In this case, Jason and Jessica might use their money to buy tutors for the neighbor's kids in return for % of the increase in their future income. Or they might invest their own time to help the neighbor's kids in return for part of their future income.

    P.S: Fees for Cs and Ds is just a flat income tax rate.
  • I too use "fees" for bad behavior. I call them "taxes" instead, however. In fact, sometimes I'll take a bite out their ice cream bar citing "necessary tax."

    Do you think my conditioning program is going too far? ;)
  • bankdraft/Leigh Scott
    Absolutely not, remember at my house a possible option is being put up for adoption...tough love...be strong
  • JB
    He's taxing Jason for working hard (sharing his earnings) ?? No wonder his grades fell ..

    Why does the dad have the same standards for both children? Life isn't fair - so both shouldn't be rewarded the same based on the same rules. Maybe Jessica is not as "smart", her payment should be different - B + $50, C+ $20 ..
  • Idea2go
    Why do they go to a school that gives grades? This promotes the idea that some people through talent or sweat are better than others. No wonder they are demoralized, as you see nothing good can ever come from this kind of system.
  • LOL! I actually went to school down the road from Hampshire College. They had a similar philosophy (and still do, I believe).

    Bonus: round diplomas!
  • szrogers
    Obviously, the "carrot" isn't working. Its probably time for the "stick". I have two daughters (19 and 20) both in college and when the older one started to slack in grades, we took away her phone, computer, car, etc. and she had to earn them back by bringing home good test grades. It worked well! Still, you need to find a way to instill self-motivation because bribes and punishment both eventually fail. The older one is getting straight A's in college and the younger one who was previously a 4.0 student in high school is getting B's and C's - she needs to figure out why it's internally important to get good grades. Good luck to your friend - glad I'm over that stage!
  • mark
    classic!
  • Don't reward their performance, reward their mediocrity. If they run their grades into the ground, they should get big fat bonuses.

    Alternatively, for every C they get, they should receive $249; if they legitimately get an A or a B they have to pay the other child $249. If they can prove they cheated to achieve that A or B...say, they used Quicken to do their math homework or something like that, they should receive double their highest payment to date.

    Better still, the parents should work to have the teachers and principal of the school fired. Clearly, this is a problem with the school, not their home life.
  • Don't forget to pay them "up front bonuses" for remaining as your kids for the near term.
  • New leader. Sounds reasonable
  • jrroche
    my parents paid me for my grades in high school but not my sister because she already had a 4.0 and didn't need incentive. i brought my grades up, she never complained, and eventually i voluntarily stopped taking the payments because i had become a good student and didn't need government--oops, i mean parental money anymore because i was back on my feet and doing successful on my own. mine is a true story and can ALSO be used as a handy BS parable!
  • Harry van Beuningen
    Andy,

    I am no expert, but do have children aged 22, 18 and 15.

    First off - stop the money aspect. Let the kids be. Grades are not that important - except in fulfilling the parents expectations. The courses studied at school are so narrow in scope, that they bear no resemblance to the real world.

    Give the kids love, and punishment if necessary. But please, no money for grades. They will turn out well. Perhaps different to their parents expectations, but productive members of society, nonetheless.
  • Boy, will my kids be happy to hear about their competition being handicapped like this. ;)
  • John F
    Interesting analogy, but I think it is wrong to pay your children for their grades. That is just rewarding short term quarterly performance, and you know where that gets you. A more reasonable approach for an 8th grader who is motivated to get a car might be, 4.0 between now and 16 and we pay for 100% of car, and scale it down reasonably from there. Reward long term performance.
  • Y
    First of all, I think this is a great example of the effect of redistribution of wealth based on a liberal like argument of percieved advantage of the other person-ie, the sister is playing the victim. The effect of motivation for the boy is great, and coupling it with alot of teaching that he is not being paid for the work he should be doing anyway, teaching not to become materialistic, but learning that hard work produces gains, the net effect is very positive.

    Then working with the sister to teach her lessons that all people have talents and that her brother is good in math, and she must excel at her strenghts and not compare her income to her brothers. She has to take responsibility for her own efforts and achievements, not make excuses or play victim, and learn how self discipiline, strength for spiritual discipiline-what ever belief system you have, and hard work is a life long effort to achieve success and reward. Definitely don't cave in and lower the boy and raise the sister due to her argument she presented.
  • bankdraft/Leigh Scott
    Put them up for adoption...
  • landonswan
    Solution: A tax of 50% for the higher grade maker, lower earner pays 10% tax. Parents keep 15% of the taxes as administration fee, then use the other 85% to shop for what they feel is best for their kids, taking into account saving the environment and donating a portion to the childrens' classmates who are less fortunate in the grade department. If questioned on their practices, the parents need to buy a telepromter.
  • Lama
    Tell them that there's more to life than money and grades. Everyone I know who was consumed by that isn't happy anyway.
  • ed
    Ship them to military school in Howe, Indiana. They Had the right idea in the first place. If you suceed shouldnt you be rewarded? They could also impose sanctions when one of the children fall beneath thier potential. If all else fails take them for a ride in your local ghetto. Let them see how good they have it and what happens if you dont follow the right path.
  • Is that the one right on the Michigan border? I think I've passed that school while visiting clients in Sturgis, MI.
  • Jay
    Hmmm... can Jason illegitimately bring a child into the world and receive extra money from the parents for the baby without actually being responsibly for the kid? Cause that would solve the money issue right there.
  • Lol clasisic
  • Russ M
    Looks like social jessica made her decision why does she even have opinoin?






    Subject: Fw: Socialism vs Capitalism




    > Think about this...
    >
    > An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never
    > failed a single
    > student, but had once failed an entire class.
    >
    > The class (students) insisted that socialism worked since
    > no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great
    > equalizer. The professor then said, "OK, we
    > will have an experiment in this class on socialism."
    >
    > "All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive
    > the same grade so no
    > one will fail and no one will receive an A."
    >
    > After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone
    > got a B. The
    > students who had studied hard were upset while the students
    > who had studied
    > very little were happy.
    >
    > But, as the second test rolled around, the students who had
    > studied little
    > studied even less and the ones who had studied hard decided
    > that since they
    > couldn't make an A, they also studied less. The second
    > Test average was a D.
    >
    > No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the
    > average grade was an F.
    >
    > The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name
    > calling, all resulted
    > in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else.
    >
    > To their great surprise all failed. The professor told them
    > that socialism
    > would ultimately fail because the harder people try to
    > succeed the greater
    > their reward (capitalism) but when a government takes all
    > the reward away (socialism) no one will try
    > or succeed.
    >
    > ...Ok that's enough, stop thinking again...
  • I think this was an Ayn Rand short story, can't remember though.
  • jg
    keep pmts private with each kid.
    no flaunting, or there is a penalty.
  • John
    Mom and Dad need to invest more of their time, not their money.
  • Time is money.
  • chiavi
    p.s i love america
  • chiavi
    pay more for biggest gain, Jess gets 3x if she brings C to A once equal they make the same amount if they drop they need to pay back the $ if bro helps tutor he gets a rip
  • @johnnyA
    good one
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